Oh my gosh, I got the honor of Professor
Dave on the Timmy Gibson show. I cannot
believe it. Before we get started, my
name's Timmy Gibson. I'm a former
fundamental evangelical Bible thumpin'
tongue talkin' Holy Ghost rollin'
pastor. Did that for 30 years. I was a
creationist.
>> [laughter]
>> I I thought Ken Ham was the the main
man. So, I'm super excited to have
Professor Dave Professor Dave doesn't
know this, but he was really really
really critical in my
uh real not just my deconstruction, but
my reconstruction process because um you
know, up until I think I came out as an
atheist maybe 3 4 years ago, but just
7 8 years ago, I was a creation
believing Adam and Eve Noah's Ark
believing Jonah was swallowed by a big
fish like all that [\h__\h]
I believe that to be absolutely fact.
And that science was the enemy of God.
And science was the devil.
It's questionable whether even dinosaurs
existed. So, I think Dave
you know,
really really really helped me
uh deconstruct all that stuff and really
reconstruct you know, scientific facts.
>> Yeah.
>> So, thank you man. Yeah, I know that's
what you're doing. That's what your
channel is about is helping people learn
science and I just wanted you to know
that it it has helped me and I'm a
former creationist. So.
>> Amazing. Yeah.
I'm happy to hear it. Yeah, that's
that's the goal for to get thousands or
even millions such such people on the
path. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, I guess a couple initial
questions like what what got you started
in this? Like were you raised Christian
or you've always been
>> No
never been religious for a single second
in my entire life.
>> Lucky you.
>> I just I I dodged that bullet. I mean,
my my parents are Italian immigrants and
there's in in Italy
I I there's like a little bit of uh
I don't know. They witnessed the
corruption of the Catholic Church just
like really right there and it's just
like I I I think there's there's a
there's a disdain there's like a
cultural commitment to to religiosity,
but it's like a secular religiosity. I I
don't know. It's It's hard to describe.
Obviously, there's super religious
people everywhere, but um but yeah, my
dad, you know, was raised in religion
and and rejected it at age like 10 or
something. You know what I mean? Just
kind of like, "Yeah, this is all dumb."
>> It's [\h__\h]
>> Yeah. And my mom similarly, I mean, I
think she still believes in God, but uh
I don't Yeah, she's not. I mean, so I I
was raised in a complete vacuum. Nothing
uttered Nothing was uttered to me of a
religious nature at all. And so, my
first exposure to it was school when I
was 5 or 6 years old and I started
hearing Jesus this and blah blah blah
and I'm like, "What are you guys talking
about?" Like So, it all sounded
ridiculous to me always. It never It
just It It very as it should sounded
like stories to me.
Cuz that's what it is. So, you know.
>> That's exactly. You know, what's
interesting because in in this journey,
you know, I'm so fresh into it and
there's things that and I've I've
watched a lot of your stuff because like
I said, it's it's helping me
transform my mind, you know, to to learn
the truth.
>> Mhm.
>> You know, especially with the things
that we know. That's the thing that's so
curious. Here I was, you know, as a
preacher that didn't know [\h__\h] about
science or biology or anything and here
I'm claiming to debunk
evolution and saying, you know, I don't
come from no monkey. You know, I would
say all these ridiculous things
and it was from ignorance. I didn't
know.
And so, even
>> Yeah, you're repeating you're repeating
what you were told because you feel that
due to your ideology, you have a team
and and you're repeating what you
perceive to be the best talking points
from the wisest people among your team
and your camp, you know, so Ken Ham or
whoever, you know, that is a credible
source to you at that time because they
reinforce the ideology that you're
tethered to and very emotionally bound
to. So, I mean, that's what thousands of
people are doing, you know.
>> Yeah, and that's what's also interesting
when I would watch some of your videos,
I remember
knowing in my head that what you were
saying was based upon factual evidence,
but [snorts]
something else in me just automatically
felt like that was wrong.
>> Mhm.
>> And what was the creation side felt
right.
You know, like it was like there was
this it was a feeling and I just I knew
that like Timmy, this is just a feeling
that you're having. This feelings don't
equal truth. It's just this is all
you've ever heard, this is all you've
ever known, and so it just aligns with
your already, like you said, my my my
beliefs already.
>> And it's even more than that because
it's not just a default this thing came
first, but it's also tethered to
I don't want to speak for you
personally, but for many a fear of
mortality, right? You it's tethered to a
belief in an afterlife that you think
you're going to get and if you're
debunking the religion, you're debunking
the afterlife aspect of it. So, there's
a there's a lot of emotional baggage.
>> Yeah.
>> With with breaking free from that, yeah.
>> Yeah, especially, you know, my
situation, it was my career. I mean, it
was what I was doing for a living, you
know, so it wasn't just unwinding like
something I did on Sundays.
>> Yeah.
>> [laughter]
>> Exactly, yeah.
>> Uh so, let me throw some questions at
you
um that some of the things that these
are things that I used to say, um but I
am curious also, what would be the most
common creationist arguments
uh that are that are out there? Like the
top three or so that that are just super
common.
>> Yeah, I mean, obviously the most common
one and there are sort of gradations of
how sophisticated this is, but everyone
from like Kent Hovind all the way to
Discovery Institute
try to pretend that there's just no way
for new forms to arise. How can How can
you get a new kind of animal, you know,
whatever whether they say kind or
species, whether they use more educated
sophisticated language or or just Bible
thumping preachers, they all just just
try to peddle this disbelief that nature
can can can change a genome sufficiently
to produce a new kind of animal. Um and
it's effective because you do have to
understand a fair amount of molecular
bio biology. You have to under You have
to be able to understand what is hap-
what can happen to a genome and what
that means for
you know, embryonic development, what
kind what what sort of form will arise
when all these genes are expressed. So
that's probably the most common one um
and I've spent a lot of time debunking
that in its different forms. Um
>> Yeah.
>> That would be one that comes to mind
right away.
What else would there be? Um I mean
>> Oh yeah, yeah, consciousness.
>> Where does that come from?
>> Yeah, see that's one strategy. So so
some So the lower level stuff is just
nuh-uh to science. It's just no, you
know, but what the more sophisticated
ones will do. So Discovery Institute
tries to do this. Um
They just identify the last minuscule
remaining gaps where a god of the gaps
can fit.
>> Right.
>> just try to pry it open uh and then
equivocate that god with the Christian
god uh obviously. But um and so there's
only three gaps left. The origin of the
universe is the only one that I would
say is actually still it there. Um a a
biogenesis, the origin of life is the
second one, which honestly there's not
really a lot of room there
either and then uh consciousness, which
honestly I also don't think there's a
whole lot of room. So, it's like,
abiogenesis and and consciousness, I
certainly wouldn't say that we have
some, you know, all-encompassing
comprehension of every single detail of
those phenomena, but they're, you know,
we understand a lot and it's just not
that much of a stretch to explain these
physically. The origin of the universe
is is still tricky, but that's like
I mean, come on. It's the most
>> you get something from nothing? I
remember saying that all the time. There
has to be a designer. There has to be a
creator. You can't just have something
out of nothing.
>> Yeah. Of course Of course you can have a
deity and not have to explain the deity.
Of course you can have a deity and not
have to explain the deity.
>> Exactly.
>> Why would you suggest that we have to
explain where why this deity exists? How
silly of you?
Yeah.
>> Right.
Yeah, the the other thing that I
remember saying in in sermons was, you
know, if evolution is true, you know,
why don't we have half ape, half
man
>> Yeah.
>> walking around?
You know?
>> Yeah. I mean, so first, yeah, humans are
apes.
>> Right. [laughter]
>> It doesn't mean anything.
It's like, yes, it's like saying
you can't have a half chicken, half
bird. Well, okay, what are you
[laughter] talking about? I mean,
um, but yeah, it it I I guess like what
you're talking about is is like the Ray
Comfort Crocoduck
>> [laughter]
>> You got to be so dumb to think that it's
like like a laser printer or something
that just like takes a form and then a
future form and then just from head to
toe starts turning it into the other
one.
Uh, it's like, yeah.
That's one of the main problems. So,
when I did my I did a long like 3-hour
creationism guide to debunking
creationism everything, I had to take a
long section of it and talk about
phylogeny and and paleontology because
one of the main problems is that is that
creationists
don't know anything about the forms that
have existed in the past. So, somebody
like Kent Hovind will say like, "Why
can't a whale turn into a pine tree?"
And and it's just like
what he's selling is the idea that
evolution says that extant forms today
yielded other extant forms today. Like a
kangaroo should evolve into a pig or
something like that. Which is insane,
right? You go back on these lineages in
millions and millions of years into the
past until you find common ancestors
that were had some morphology that you
could see clearly different for, you
know, it's very easy to see how
different mammals came from, you know, a
different from a particular common
ancestor. But but creationists don't
know what that ancestor looks like. They
don't know anything about the the forms
that we've uncovered through
paleontology. So, that has to be
explained, obviously.
>> Right.
So, when when we say the we, you know,
the old you know, the ape, you know, the
whatever and then it just slowly starts
getting more upright, which is
incorrect, I know that.
>> Well, no, I'm not saying that.
>> It's kind of like first cousins.
I mean, is is it like we're a a what? 3
million years ago a cousin to
a
a great ape or a chimpanzee or
>> Well, us Okay, so the the the most
recent common ancestor between humans
and chimps and bonobos is
someone fact check me. I think it's
about 6 million
>> Okay.
>> 7 million, something like that. I could
be wrong about that. I'm trying to
recall my my biological anthropology
content.
But after that split, you have a lineage
of dozens of species of you know,
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, Ardipithecus,
Orrorin tugenensis.
And then once you get to the
Australopithecines, there's like, I
don't know how many species within the
Australopithecus genus, maybe 20 or
something. I'm not sure exactly. And
then from there evolved the Homo genus.
So, that's the genus that we are in. And
there were many many species within the
Homo genus as well. Homo sapiens is the
only one that remains. In fact, Homo
sapiens is the only hominid species that
remains on that entire lineage. That's
the thing about evolution and geological
time is that most [\h__\h] is gone, right?
>> Right. Right.
>> Way more than 99% of all species that
have ever existed are gone.
Um some persist for very long time.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> [laughter]
>> But I mean it's like that's why it's
hard for for uneducated creationists to
see because you're taking away all of
these forms. They're They don't They're
not around today, but you can see them
if you learn about paleontology, you
know. So, that's it. Um
>> That was something that impacted me, uh
Professor Dave, when I did the 23andMe
and I had 2% Neanderthal.
>> Mhm.
>> And then I read the book Sapiens. And
this was at the very beginning when I
was just starting to think, you know,
gosh, I don't think everybody's going to
hell. You know, I was just For me it was
a very slow gradual, you know, I was
very very fundamental and then I kind of
became more open-minded liberal and you
know, just kept sliding away until
finally I was like, I think I'm atheist.
Anyway, so I was reading Sapiens and I'm
like, wait, what? The
Literally, this is sad to say, but 2018
2019 is when I first understood that
there were other
species of humans. I did not know this.
And uh I always thought that was just
caveman. It was just us. It was just old
school us. And when I heard that, it you
know, and I'm like, well, and I know the
Bible. I went to Bible college. I'm
like, I've read the Bible multiple
times. There's nothing in there about
Neanderthals.
>> [laughter]
>> You know, like there's nothing in there
that's explaining
all of these other species. Or like you
what you just said that 99% of all the
species that
God ever created have gone extinct.
Like, what the hell was the purpose in
that then? You know, it just created It
was just creating more questions and and
things that were just not
I couldn't reconcile, you know, I
couldn't reconcile in in my brain.
>> Yeah, and so the task of the creationist
and and this is what this is what
Discovery Institute tries to do. I mean
and this is the funny part is because
everybody will do it a different way.
You have all of these hominid species.
So take something like like a like an
Australopithecine like like
uh specimen um
and they they clearly have intermediary
characteristics, right? They have they
have more basal characteristics because
they were still kind of getting around
in trees.
Um but they have
modern human characteristics. They
undeniably walked upright as well.
Um and so they have anatomical features
that make them objectively not chimps or
humans. Like just anatomically does not
make sense. The knees, the hips, like
everything about them, they
categorically are not either chimps or
humans.
>> Would that be like a Lucy?
>> Yeah, like Lucy. Any Australopithecus
species
will have this this kind of intermediate
morphology. Um
and so the task of the creationist, they
have to convince the their constituents
that all of these are either chimps or
humans, right? Because that's it.
There's chimps and humans. There's not
all this other fantastic other stuff.
Um and so they don't even agree. Like
you can make a chart where each
creationist group like Answers in
Genesis and Discovery Institute or
whatever where they and they don't agree
with each other, right? They'll find
some Australopithecine specimen. Some of
them say it's a chimp, some of it say
it's it's a human and like they it's
just because it gets tricky because they
so undeniably are neither
of those things. So it's it's fun fun to
watch. Yeah.
>> Well, let me let me I'm going to throw
these little one-liners at you that that
again I used to say as a preacher and
just I wanted your thought on it. Carbon
dating isn't accurate. Can't count on
it.
>> Okay, why?
>> [laughter]
>> Because I say so.
I love your response. I wondered if
that's what you would say. It's like
there is a preacher just saying a thing.
And I Here's what's interesting,
Professor Dave. This is what's
fascinating to me.
When I was preaching, right? I'm
speaking to and I'm just going to be
honest cuz I considered myself now, I
look back and I called myself a [\h__\h]
I'm very hard on the Christian belief
system. I mean, I really go hard after
it. That's why one reason why I love
you.
I I'm like that I was [\h__\h] I was a
[\h__\h] I was a complete [\h__\h] you know,
trying to debunk things that I knew not
of. And then I had a whole church of you
know, they were wonderful people, all
that stuff. But they were also
completely ignorant of
biology. And so they also
were just believing what I said. And I
had no There's I'm just saying a thing.
And they're amen-ing me and praise the
Lord and hallelujah. And it's like
>> It's willful ignorance. Yeah, it's it's
willful ignorance because you're
ideologically bound. I mean, but yeah,
so if you don't know what carbon I mean,
it's not just biology. It's physics,
too, if we're talking about carbon
dating. But but it's just a blind
assertion, right? You're just saying
nah-uh to science. So that
I mean, it doesn't even merit a merit a
response. I think that
if you try to get more sophisticated,
some creationists will try to argue that
you are making an assumption that
nuclear decay rates are constant, but
that could be variable over time. And so
that's so you know, but these are just
unsubstantiated claims as well, right?
We we we can we have observed these
decay rates over time. They are constant
no matter where you take the measurement
in a vacuum or what like there's there's
nothing that you could possibly bring up
to suggest that these decay rates are
variable.
And certainly not over tens of thousands
of years, right? If you want to talk
about uranium, you know, or
potassium-argon dating or whatever we
use to determine the the of the earth.
So that's one thing. First of all, is
that they'll say, "How do you carbon
date the earth?" It's like, you don't.
>> [laughter]
>> Other radioactive isotopes, right?
Radiometric dating utilizes a whole host
of different
different nuclide pairs. Carbon dating
is reliable to up to about 50,000 years
cuz you go about 10 half-lives is kind
of the general rule of thumb before the
the data is too is is not as easy to to
to interpret. But, um
yeah, a lot of different nuclides. It's
brilliant science, you know, that we use
to figure out the age of stuff.
>> Yeah, and I think you know, the what is
it? The argument from ignorance, you
know, I think when I don't understand
something, therefore it's not true, and
then therefore God. I mean, that's like
that's the obvious conclusion.
>> Yeah, sadly [laughter] that is exactly
what it is. Yeah. [clears throat]
>> The the other thing that I used to say,
uh and I'm I'm I know you'll have
something to say about this, evolution
is only a theory.
>> Yeah.
So so much to say here.
>> [laughter]
>> So, I mean, let's just start with what a
theory is, right? A a theory
colloquially is treated as a guess.
Like, oh, it's a little guestimation or
what this could have happened, you know.
>> Yeah, something I'm shooting out of my
butt.
>> Yeah. So, in in science or well, what
it's supposed to be, I I kind of abhor
the colloquial usage of it. Uh and I
hope wish we would eradicate it. Um but,
it's it's a model that correlates data
and makes predictions. And uh it's uh
the
the they can be as robust as anything
imaginable in science. Uh atomic theory,
germ theory, there's absolutely no doubt
whatsoever that atoms exist and and that
bacteria, you know, pathogens cause
disease and things of that nature. The
these are treated as facts. So, it is
factually true that atoms exist, but
nevertheless in the context of history
of science, the idea of atoms was a
model that John Dalton used to
uh to to explain things about uh the
numerical ratios, you know, mass
different amounts of mass that are
reacting and things like that. So,
they're they're models. They're they're
constructs. They're not It's not an
individual datum. That's what a theory
is. So, theories never become laws.
A law is a summary of observations. A
theory is an actual model that makes
predictions. And theories are better
than laws. They're worth more than laws
because they have explanatory power. Uh
so, "just a theory" is a very dumb
sentence. Um and then furthermore,
evolution is is a process. You wouldn't
really say evolution is a theory. Uh
natural selection is a theory and then,
you know, the Darwinian model kind of
evolved over time, uh ironically. And
so, you have neo neo-Darwinism and then
modern synthesis. So, so evolutionary
theory or evolutionary biology is a
model has has changed over time. But,
evolution is a thing that we It just
It's like It's like when flat-Earthers
say gravity is just a theory. You know,
gravity's not a theory. Gravity is a
natural phenomenon that exists. It can
be described by laws like Newton's law
of universal gravitation. It can be
described by theories like general
relativity. General relativity is a
theory of of gravity. Gravity is not a
theory. Gravity is a natural phenomenon
that exists, you know? And evolution is
a thing that we see all the time. We
observe evolution every day. It's a
thing that happens.
>> Yeah.
>> And we have models that can describe it
and make predictions about it, yeah.
>> Yeah. I did a video uh and I'm curious
if you think this is accurate. I did a
video and I said that to be a
creationist is paramount to being a
flat-Earther.
>> It's close. I mean, it it's it's not
It's almost as dumb. It's uh flat-Earth
is dumber than
>> Right.
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah.
Because flat-Earth
>> footage, right?
>> Right. I Yeah, that I mean, you can just
say, "Oh, that's fake." But But, also
you don't need that. I mean, um the
easiest way to disprove flat-Earth is
just very basic naked eye observations
of the celestial sphere. So, just the
the way that uh the my go-to is just uh
stars rotating around the north
celestial pole counter clockwise and
then south celestial pole clockwise
and then just stars
appearing and disappearing as you change
latitude like the night sky does not
make sense on a flat earth at all and so
that's what you're denying is basic
naked eye observations and and basic
logic base basic spatial reasoning to be
a flat earther that's what you have to
do
creationism is a little different to
this is this is the measure of how dumb
something is to believe flat earth we
disproved 2500 years ago right
creationism in order to firmly debunk
creationism it requires like 19th
century science you know what I mean you
need slightly you need relatively modern
science not cutting edge science
>> right right right
>> you need 200 years ago science to debunk
creationism you need the beginnings of
modern geology and modern biology so
it's not as dumb as flat earth but it's
very dumb
>> [laughter]
>> uh where's the missing link
>> for what
>> for
evolution that's something we used to
say that all the time in church you know
that there there's no missing link and
I'm assuming that just means the half
man half ape which
>> they're probably talking about hominid
evolution but but this is the irony is
like you you can say this about any
lineage that yielded any extant animal
any modern animal species and you can
you can identify a lineage and go well
like what's in here and then obviously
paleontology will fill in those gaps but
everywhere you fill it in there's still
a gap between those two well like well
what's in there okay okay we found one
okay well now what's in the between
there now there's two gaps instead of
one you know it's just like okay we
don't have a fossil of every organism in
the history of the world but you know
when you have a jigsaw puzzle that's a
thousand pieces and you got 892 of them
you
I can we see what it is it's a hot air
balloon I can see what the picture is I
don't need every last pick piece to to
to get it, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> Especially with DNA, it seems and I
think this is accurate. I mean, you can
correct me here, but there's there's so
much like what they're calling ghost
DNA, meaning, you know,
species that we haven't actually
uncovered yet and and identified yet.
Like the Denisovans are fairly new, I
think, or
different species where there's probably
some that are have have yet to be
discovered. Um
>> Yeah, we we discover new species every
day. We discover multiple new species
every single day.
You go to you go to the Amazon
rainforest or you go, you know, deep
underwater, like you find new [\h__\h] Like
there's just new stuff all over the
place. It's crazy, but it always always
always always fits uh in some lineage. I
mean, sometimes there is sometimes they
So,
the the subtleties of phylogeny are
always in flux, right? If you get down
to like the family and and genus or or
even even higher. I mean, they they do
restructure, but that's just human
categorization, right? Nature doesn't
care about that. Nature just does
whatever it does. Um so, the way we
categorize everything and sometimes we
go, "Oh, wait, actually this might be
more basal." We're we're kind of
shifting stuff around, but there's never
anything that's like,
"What? Like this doesn't make any sense
evolution" That never happens, right?
There's always, you know, this looks
like it's in this phylum and it's
probably related to the you know, it's
uh everything makes sense, you know.
>> Yeah, so you're saying we won't find
Atlantis or an advanced civilization
that
>> Well, that's a whole that's a whole
other kettle of fish.
>> I know. I won't I won't
>> [laughter]
>> All right, let's let's stay on track.
Sorry. Believing something by faith.
>> Mhm.
>> You know, in in in Christianity, so as
an evangelical a former evangelical
Christian now atheist,
you know, faith was was it was a virtue.
You know, it was it was you know,
there's a story in the Bible where
Thomas doubt doubting Thomas, right?
Didn't believe in that Jesus resurrected
and so, you know, someone wrote down
that Jesus did appear and said to
Thomas, you know, hey, you don't
believe, you know, you're it's greater
to believe without seeing, but you know,
since you don't believe, I'm going to
show you the nail scars and all that
[\h__\h]
>> Trying to make it seem virtuous to blind
faith. Right, blind faith is a foible,
it's not a it's not a virtue. You can
have it, but let's be realistic here,
you know.
>> Yeah. [snorts]
So, yeah, so your your thoughts on on
believing in anything just by faith.
>> [snorts]
>> I mean, you're welcome to do it and it's
like I have faith, what do I have faith
in? I have faith that
that
I will, you know, live live my whole
life and or I have faith that
everything's going to go well today or
you know, you know, we have faith in in
I I faith in trivial things, I think.
But the the the desperate projection of
blind faith onto science and scientific
process is something that creationists
do all the time because they want to
level the playing field. Right, science
is antithetical to faith. It is the
precise opposite of faith. It is
evidence-based and reason-based. It is
data-driven. Right, this is what the
data suggests. So, we don't have faith
in anything. We science is the faith has
does not enter into it for a single
second. We we gather data and this is
what the data suggested. This is the
this is the current scientific
consensus.
But the desire to level the playing
field is there. So, they say that you
know, science is religion and evolution
is religion and this is why they will
obsess about Darwin
and just talk about Darwin all day long
because they want Darwin to be a prophet
like Jesus is a prophet
as though as though
you know, origin of origin of species is
some kind of scripture and that nothing
has changed since then. Right,
evolutionary biology would be completely
unrecognizable to Darwin. You'd have no
idea what's going on.
It just has nothing to do I mean the the
the core principles are there and have
been validated many times over. But he
the whole field of genetics like he
didn't know what DNA is like he would
have no idea what's going on, right? So
that's very different from a book that's
like the these are facts and you can't
they will never change and you can't
question them. Right, that's not that's
the exact opposite of what science is.
So
>> Right. I think one of the one of the
arguments that you know, I watched a lot
of debates in my beginning of my
deconstruction process and I forget who
it was now I've watched so many. They
brought up you know, would you want to
be arrested
and and put on trial for a murder based
upon faith
especially knowing your innocent you
know, or would you want them to enter
into the trial evidence, you know, real
substantial evidence to to free you.
>> Yeah.
>> And well, you know,
I don't think there's anyone that's like
I don't think the faith.
>> Right.
>> And that that really was a
>> DNA evidence incriminating someone else,
please.
>> Right. Yeah, I'll definitely take that.
Okay, what about the what about this
whole thing the god-shaped hole in our
hearts that I I I used to talk about
I've heard people talk about. You think
that's just more of a cultural thing or
more just part of evolution?
>> I mean yeah, it's an interesting
question number one is that even really
a thing and number two how much how much
is biological versus cultural. It could
be both. I mean I I think that we
definitely instinctually look yearn for
answers and in absence of answers in
absence of legitimate answers, we come
up with myths,
>> [snorts]
>> right? We come up with mythology.
Um
And
I don't think it's
the the concept of deism detached from
religion is not an outrageous um
thing to to believe or or hold. I don't
personally have that belief, but um
uh so I don't know. I part of it is just
sort of rhetoric. Part of it is just
like you need God, you know, you need
God to be complete and everything, and
everybody who doesn't believe in God is
secretly angry at God or or or hiding or
I whatever which unhappy unhappy
whatever defense mechanisms they use to
convince themselves that they're in the
right. Um but uh in terms of
evolutionary biology and and the degree
to which we are driven to seek divinity,
it's an interesting question. I I I
don't know what the current research is
on that, but yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. It's
nice to hear you say that, you know, I'm
I'm a atheist, you know, I don't believe
in any god.
Um though I often say, you know, I'm
agnostic. I mean, is there a god out
there? I mean, how the hell could I
know? I don't know, you know? I mean, I
I don't see any evidence for that.
That's why I
>> It sure as [\h__\h] is not the Abrahamic
God, but could there be one? Yeah.
>> That's exactly what I say, Professor
Dave. I say, "Listen, I am absolutely
atheist. I know that God doesn't exist
nor any god of of any uh religion that
man created."
>> Right.
>> Um but, you know, is there something way
out there? How the hell could I even
know?
>> cannot disprove it nor will we probably
ever
disprove that. I mean, that's yeah, we
can't do that. So, yeah.
>> Uh this is this is kind of on topic but
on topic off topic. Uh so, all the alien
[\h__\h] I'm I'm a I'm an I don't believe
in it. I believe that there's
potentially life out there in the
universe somewhere. It's a big universe.
There's a lot of [\h__\h] out there. Uh you
know, but have they been here? You know,
have they probed anybody? You know, I
don't believe that at all. Uh I don't
believe that the government the US
government is is holding some, you know,
biological material from an alien. I
don't believe any of that. I'm just
curious. What's since that's kind of a
hot topic now, yeah, what's your two
cents on that?
>> Uh same. Exact same. Uh the more
alarming and interesting thing to
discuss is why
all of this disclosure rhetoric is now
being pushed by the government and and
and the and the hilarious parade
>> Look here. Look over here.
>> Yeah, and the the hilarious parade of
of
you know
the like the the exact people who were
just like the government is lying to us.
The government is lying to us. The
government is lying to us. Um hey,
there's aliens. The government said so.
Like it's just dude, have some [\h__\h]
great point in your epistemology. It's
just like it blows my mind. Like what
that now now you're like the government
tell told me the thing I like so I'm
going to Um so I don't really know what
it is. I mean it's
there's a component that's a
distraction. There's a component that's
like weird Zionist stuff. Like I I don't
know what's going on. Um but like Avi
Loeb heading the the UAP advisory
committee, it's like dude.
>> [sighs]
>> Grifter central get you know, like
everything is is super shady about all
of it. Um and everyone's talking about
this crap. It's just like it really
really blows my mind. But
>> Yeah. Yeah, cuz to me honestly to me it
it is parallel to like I left the land
of of conspiracy theory religion.
>> Mhm.
>> And to me this is just a different kind
of the same [\h__\h] thing.
It's the same it's the same [\h__\h] Like
believing something because someone said
some [\h__\h] and you have a weird video
with something that's you can't for sure
tell exactly what it is, you know.
Uh for sure. You know.
>> Yeah, I mean it's tricky because like
the way we learn these days is by
listening to people say things and there
are people who say true things and there
are people who say false things. And
there are people who say false things
that are very very clever and are able
to
make it compelling and seem like they
are referencing factual data and but
they're not you know what I mean it just
so it becomes a quagmire right it
becomes the job of a science
communicator to take all the false
claims and go hey this sounds very
convincing to you they make it seem like
they're referencing such and such study
or whatever we see it well with all the
anti-vax stuff and all the old health
stuff right they are you know look at
this study that says that this you know
vaccine causes this thing or no it
doesn't you know it just doesn't like it
looks like science to to a layperson I
can I can sympathize with those who fell
for this rhetoric but
let let me show you what the study
actually says or let me explain to you
why this is not a valid study or not
actually study at all it's like just a
you know a
preprint it's not even an actual paper
it becomes a
gargantuan task to expose all these
people and that's what I do literally
every day and I can't even scratch the
surface on it so
>> Yeah 100% I I'm a little embarrassed to
say this but I was an anti-vaxxer up
until a year ago and your
you have you got me out of it
>> Exactly two for two
>> Yeah [laughter]
again you know I was already bent into
again conspiracy land as as religious
person
and
yeah I mean all the stuff that is that
you cover and that you know
that now I cover and talk a lot about
not from a science perspective but from
being in it like I was in the cult I've
escaped
and now I'm I look at things rationally
man I mean literally I've been saved by
just rational logical thinking and I was
an anti-vaxxer
up until a year ago and so
then I just you know when I looked at
the research and all the things that you
the debates and things I thought holy
[\h__\h] like
man, you know, I'm still in the process
of deconstructing this old narrative
that
I grew up
>> They all go together, right? Anti-vax
and creationism go together because it's
all about
distrust of the scientific
establishment, right? Which is just code
for people who know what they're talking
about. Um and so it is it is important.
I mean, I take what I do very seriously
because the thing is that the people
peddling the disinformation for a few
years had complete dominance in the in
the social media space and
all of this stuff. And so just these
narratives got really out of control and
you have to fight them and in in the
milieu where they are happening. So it's
like I think that there's a lot of
people who
certainly aren't stupid. They're they're
just they fall prey to these this
predatory predatory content. And if they
were if they had access to other content
and and they were able to go, "Okay,
this person is saying this, this person
is saying this. Let me genuinely try to
ascertain who is making the more
compelling case." Right? They're not
even coming at it from an ideological
thing. They're just like, "Okay, I don't
know what's going on. People are saying
things. Let me let me hear hear them
out, you know." And so I work my work my
hardest to make as compelling a case as
possible and uh
you know,
it looks like I win sometimes.
>> I mean, you have like some 2,000 videos
and yeah, they're like I told you, I
mean, they really have helped me
just because it's it's a it's a process,
you know, I viewed I would have I think
I may have seen some of your stuff even
when I was a Christian and and I hated
you. I didn't like you. I I thought, you
know, I thought all the negative things.
You were a tool of Satan, you know, the
devil was using you to put like all the
things, you know?
And
so I know that that cuz I still I still
have some Christian people in my in my
life, right? I lost a lot of them now
now that I'm working for the devil in
their mind. Uh but I still have some
that I talk to
and and they don't even want to hear
anything counter to what they believe. I
literally had a guy that asked me, he
said, "Can I send you a
this really great preacher this video
this pastor talking about Jesus?" You
know, whatever. And what I'm thinking,
dude, I [\h__\h] went to Bible college
for 4 years. I was a preacher. Like like
>> What are you going to show me that I
don't know?
>> yeah, whatever. So I he sent it to me
and and out of whatever I watched it
and
um
I then said, "Hey, if I send you a
video, will you watch it?"
No.
>> No.
>> He wouldn't watch it.
And I thought, wow, isn't that
fascinating? Like I have a video that
absolutely debunks what that moronic
preacher just said.
>> Yeah.
>> And you won't watch it. You won't even
It's like people It's like, no, I have I
have evidence that actually, no,
vaccines don't cause autism. Like they
just don't. Like if they did, I would
think science would say, "Hey guys, they
actually do." Like but they don't.
>> Yeah, the point the point is
the point is that if vaccines caused
autism, when you do gigantic cohort
studies of millions of children, you
would get some data. You would you would
see a court right that that's why the
vaccines cause autism always always boil
down to like these small cohort didn't
control for variables. Like it like very
deliberately fudging and cherry-picking
data. When you do the big robust studies
that are immaculately well controlled,
there's nothing there.
>> Yeah.
>> So.
>> Yeah. So JFK's a lying. Is he Is he a
grifter, a liar? Is he deceived? Like
it's What What is
>> RFK Jr.? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, he's a big old grifter. Big
old grifter. Opportunistic,
money-hungry, sociopathic uh freak.
>> Yeah.
>> Total piece of [\h__\h]
>> Fascinating. So, here's that book that
that
Fauci, did he write a book called Fauci?
I didn't read it. Uh
>> Yes, he wrote a book, uh, villainizing
Fauci.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah.
>> Huh. Fascinating.
>> Yeah, I'm going to do a video, uh,
uh, pretty soon, uh, exonerating Fauci
because this is one of these myths that
you just cannot get it through the skull
of certain people. Like, people just
know that COVID leaked from a lab and
they know that Fauci is a monster and
all this stuff and that you're just
regurgitating, uh,
a propaganda narrative that was
relentlessly drilled into your head from
many angles, mostly on the podcast bro
space and then also from
the government at this point in this
administration.
>> of those people.
>> Yeah.
>> Like, I I I was one of those people
>> Mhm.
>> and and still and I think it's still
kind of in my
sphere, you know what I mean? Like, it's
still I know I know here that that's not
true
but that was so drilled into me during
COVID that I had bought into it.
>> Yeah. Yeah, COVID the the pandemic was
just it it became,
uh, a hydra a scapegoat hydra for a
pushing all kinds of political agendas,
um,
which is crazy.
But, we're here still deconstructing
this you know, years later.
>> Yeah, it's crazy.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay, another comment. Is science a
religion? Cuz I hear I even hear that
now as an atheist. Like, you just
switched teams. You went from one
religion to another religion and I'm
like,
No, but okay.
>> Like, yeah, like I said, science is
completely antithetical to religion. It
is the polar opposite of religion in
terms of a worldview or or, you know, a
structure for,
uh, for ascertaining knowledge and and
and, uh,
it's just there's there's nothing
religious like about it, right? When you
have a religion, you have you have
prophets, you have scripture, and so
they'll this is why they try to paint
scientists as prophets and scientific
information as scripture, but it's not,
right? The the body of scientific
knowledge is constantly changing.
When you disprove something in science,
you get awards. You don't get chastised,
you know?
And scientists are are not prophets or
we don't you know, if a scientist can do
a brilliant thing and then they can do a
stupid thing after that and everyone
will go, "Wow, they really messed up.
They nailed it on the first one, but
man, that other idea, let's all debunk
it cuz we're all scientists, too." And
it's just an ever-changing body of
knowledge and it is the way that we
ascertain things about the physical
world.
Science doesn't tell you how how to be
happy or how to find purpose in your
life. So, I mean, I'm not going to
there are there are people who are
religious in a way that is not
problematic. They do not deny science.
They do not proselytize and they simply
have a have a cultural framework with
which they gain purpose and and and
community and things like that and I
don't that doesn't bother me at all and
I would never try to
change someone for for being that way,
but um
um
but yeah, in terms of like what is the
thing made of and where did it come from
and how does this work and those kinds
of questions, science is the only game
in town. Religion has absolutely dick on
science in that regards. So, that's all
there is to it.
>> Yeah, I I think it was I forget who said
it, but I heard someone say you can't
you know, you can't have your own set of
facts.
>> No.
>> You know, it's like there isn't like
Hindu math, Christian math.
>> Right.
>> Buddhism math, you know? And when I
heard that, it it I was like, "Oh, wow,
yeah, I didn't think of there's like
just math."
>> Yeah, there's teriology math. If you're
Terrence Howard, you invent your own
math.
>> Dude, Terrence Howard's here in Kansas
City.
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, he's filming a movie,
right?
>> He's only
>> like not even a mile from me right now.
>> Mhm.
>> [laughter]
>> That's bananas.
>> I I literally wanted to uh so I used to
I live just off the plaza. My wife and I
recently bought a house, but literally
just a mile from us is uh the plaza
where he's filming I don't know whatever
he's doing over there. And but I lived
on the plaza for about 7 years. So I
lived in an apartment complex that
overlooked the building where he is
actually.
>> So anyway, that
>> Uh yeah, I was laughing cuz yeah, his
his stuff is is insane.
>> His show. What does 1 + 1 idiot?
>> [laughter]
>> Or Professor Dave says hi.
>> That's what I was going to say.
Literally I was going to say, "Professor
Dave says hi."
>> He hates me. He hates me.
>> I bet.
>> So funny. Funniest thing [laughter] in
the
>> You know what's interesting? I I think
you know, your delivery style, you know,
I love it. You know, you're you're
extremely sarcastic and and but but the
thing about it is
I get it. It's when I was a Christian,
you know, obviously you were coming out
against the things that I believed and
so I took it very personal. I was I took
offense to it, right? And now it's like,
"Oh, well, it's because there are things
that we know. And so if someone's saying
something that is absolutely 100%
empirically false."
>> Yeah.
>> And like what you supposed You can't
powder coat this.
>> And it's not just that it's not just
that they're wrong. It's that they're
corrosive and they're insulting to to
humanity and they are used to push
immoralities. Um they're These are very
destructive bad uh threads of
propaganda. It's whether it's
creationism or or anti-vax, right?
People die. They're used to seize
political power, right? Bad stuff
happens. So I'm sorry if my facts hurt
your feelings. Don't
or sorry not sorry, right? I don't care.
I don't care. People are doing damage.
People are ruining human civilization.
and if if I
make people angry with my my names my
name calling while there's genocide
happening and [\h__\h] like
I don't care. I just don't care. This is
where we're at, okay?
>> Yeah.
>> Deal with it.
>> [laughter]
>> Well, no. I I I absolutely respect it. I
think it's great. I I did a I just
finished uh Christopher Hitchens book um
God is not great.
>> Yeah.
>> And how religion poisons everything. And
I And I asked this question to my
audience. I said, you know, if
if
you are teaching something to be true
that you should have live your life by
when it is absolutely
not true how can that be good?
You know, how can that be good to
organize your life around a lie? Like
so, yeah. I I'm like you. I don't care
if as long as you believe in the facts,
the things that we know, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I I don't care if you believe in some
kind of a divine being out there,
whatever. That's
>> And And if you if you if you rely on
your faith in a higher power to get
through trauma and horrible Like I would
never go into Gaza and be like, "Hey,
you guys, God's not real. Like all of
this is happening for no reason and you
have no afterlife after this. You're not
going to see your kids later that were
murdered right in front of your face." I
would never do that.
>> [laughter]
>> Like
if all you have, please believe in God
and please believe all of these things
and stay and
like try to get through this, you know?
Um but that's a categorically different.
These are not people that are that are
that are poisoning society and uh trying
to take over the government and trying
to use falsehoods to justify or or
profit off of lies that kill people and
then, you know, that's a totally
different thing. So, yeah.
>> Yeah, you know, it's fascinating um
Professor Dave, for me, you know, I I
one of the questions I get often is, you
know, where where do you get a sense of
purpose and meaning?
>> Mhm.
>> And you know, I it's well, frankly, I I
thought I was getting it from God, but
you know,
in my opinion, right, there is no God.
So, it was clearly I actually wasn't
even originally. So,
now I just get it from my life, my my
wife, my kids, my you know, just my job,
like everything about my life I just get
meaning from it in in general. And it's
I don't know why, but that's just a
weird question to me cuz I'm like,
"Well, if you believed in Santa and that
gave you a sense of whatever about
Christmas, and then you found out Santa
wasn't real, you still like I still like
Christmas even though I know Santa's not
real."
I don't know. I did I don't understand
where that that that some of the people
that I deal with in the deconstruction
space is they sometimes like, "Do you
ever really worry about hell?" You know,
sometimes I still worry about hell. I'm
like, "But it's not real though. Like
it's not [laughter] real." So,
right, that's like absolutely it's not
real. So,
>> Yeah. Like
the idea like the trivialities that
religious people think a God would
punish someone eternally for
is just insane to me. Like the math
doesn't work. It doesn't make sense that
I would say, "Fuck you, God." And like,
"Okay, [laughter]
hellfire for eternity." Doesn't make any
sense. What a vindictive, petty,
genocidal
uh sociopathic uh God, you know, who And
that's And that's an all-loving God.
That doesn't make any sense.
Um that's how we know the Abrahamic God
uh isn't real. But um yeah, I mean, to
to to require God to be happy is
obviously ridiculously false. Um to
require God to find purpose uh obviously
is also false. I mean, it's a more
delicate thing because
not everybody has access to something
that I I have a tremendous sense of
purpose in what I do because there are
evil forces that are trying to ruin the
world for everybody, and I'm fighting
against that. So, it's like that's very
easy to derive purpose from that. Not
everybody like if you just kind of have
sort of a you know, a regular job, it's
totally fine. Most people just kind of
have regular jobs and you can, you know,
I I'm the person that brings the mail to
you or I I'm the person that brings you
the food or do whatever and that's a you
can derive purpose from that. It's not
as It's not as transcendent. I think
it's a little more work to derive a real
sense of purpose from that but but you
can. Um so, I think traditionally people
in those in those positions have a god
or, you know, have a deity that like,
"Okay, that's how I'm going to
get that purpose." But
I don't know, you know, you be be a
figure in your community or, you know,
just be kind to people. I I don't know.
Th- This is the part where it's like I
don't have the answers and if you if you
get these kinds of answers from religion
without being a toxic person, that's
fine. I don't care.
>> Sure.
>> But you don't need, you know, I found I
found a It's very, very firm sense of
purpose.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, no, and I can I can you can tell
and and I'm the same, you know, I I tell
people, "Listen, I'm not trying to take
your god away from you. I'm really not.
I'm just I'm trying to tell you like the
earth isn't 6,000 years old and you
should really not believe that."
>> Yeah. Did you know that you can believe
in god and not deny science? Tons of
people do it. There are scientists who
are religious. They just believe in a
god and and have beliefs that don't
contradict science. And if new data, new
evidence arises, then they change their
religious views to conform to what we
know to be empirically valid.
>> Yeah.
>> That's the correct kind of religious
person to be, you know.
>> Right. Right. And you know, I'm I'm 57
and and I I've always just I've never
wanted to be a dumb person, you know?
Just never wanted to be a dumb person.
>> Well, nobody does but
the dumber the dumber you are, the less
capable you are of knowing how dumb you
are, so
>> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's It's been
so freeing for me because I'm so shocked
to talk to people
that are unaware of all of the evidence
to absolutely prove them that what
they're believing is completely false.
>> Mhm.
>> And and they want to remain in that
ignorance. And I was that guy. Like I
was that guy. All right, you know, what
can I say? I was that guy for 48 years.
And now that I've, you know, uh switched
over to like, okay, well, if the
evidence is saying this, like I'm going
to go with the evidence.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh it it I I I almost can't even believe
that people don't do that. Like don't
you want to know the truth? Like don't
you want to Now, there maybe are some
things we don't know. Like what happens
after we die? I don't freaking know. It
seems like it just all shuts down. It's
gone. It's out. It's over. That's it.
But I, you know, I've not died. And I've
not, you know, I don't know.
Uh and I'm okay not knowing. It doesn't
bother me.
>> Yeah, fair enough.
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's It's a combination But the
thing is a lot of people don't want to
know. That That's the thing. They don't
want to know facts. They want to remain
in their
uh in their story time place where they
will go to heaven and frolic among their
loved ones for eternity.
>> Right. In mansions and streets of
>> I don't blame them. I mean, I'm scared
to die. I don't want to die. And I think
it's going to suck.
>> Yeah.
>> But uh
>> Well, I appreciate your honesty. You
know, I I don't want to die either. If
they had some pill that could help me
live for 500 years, I'd be like, [\h__\h]
yeah, give that to me, man.
>> take 500 years. Yes. I I would like to
live as long as possible and I will take
steps to increase my longevity as much
as within my means to do.
Um but I'm also a [\h__\h] adult
uh that can look at reality and go,
yeah, we all die. That's the thing that
happens and
>> No one's escaped that.
>> can't escape it. It's going to happen.
And you'll be there when it happens. And
it will probably be terrifying. And then
you'll be gone and that's the end of it.
And the rest goes on, though.
>> That's right.
>> Everybody else still here going and
you're gone.
>> What's that Christopher Hitchens says,
you know, it's
in some of his interviews where man,
they were hard to watch, but
towards the end he said, you know, it's
it's like you're at the party and
someone taps you on the shoulder and
says you have to leave the party.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and I'm like, "Oh, gosh,
that's a"
>> Yeah. And he left a little little too
soon. He was like 60 years different,
yeah.
>> Yeah, 62, yeah. I unfortunately, yeah, I
I'm a huge fan of Christopher Hitchens,
you know, now since he's passed, you
know.
>> Yeah.
>> So, all right, final couple questions to
respect your time.
Um
what what books, uh if any, what would
be a couple books that you recommend for
people who are deconstructing, you know,
leaving the creationist viewpoint or a
religious viewpoint? Any books that you
recommend or series or anything that you
recommend?
>> I got to be honest. I I don't read. I
don't have time. I don't have the luxury
to read, so I really almost never read
anything. Um
so, I don't know what has been kind of
in that space. Uh I also never
deconverted, so I don't really know what
is better or worse than a uh out of my
own out
>> I mean, I mean, that would be like, you
know,
>> what I would suggest is I have that,
like I said earlier, this like 3-hour
long uh ultimate guide to debunking
creationism. That would be what I would
recommend people watch because it is
non-combative. It's not uh I'm not
taking down a particular charlatan. It's
just the tone is very neutral. So, it's
way less like it's it's absolutely uh
indefensible that somebody would watch
that and and label me as angry or
whatever, you know, it's just very
fact-based uh taking creationist claims
and and debunking them with basic
science. So,
that is that would be the one.
>> Yeah, and you it's it's Professor Dave
>> explains.
>> Is explains. Okay.
Um on YouTube. And by the way, I didn't
realize you were a piano player, bro.
That's so cool.
>> Thanks, yeah.
>> Do you still play?
>> Uh a little bit. Um
yeah, and music is
>> I was like, "What the heck?"
>> Thank you.
>> Yeah, that's cool. Well, man, listen, I
just can't even tell you seriously what
an honor. Uh I really appreciate your
time and yeah, you're you're making a
difference. You really helped me as a
former fundamental preacher,
you know, come over to the side of
evidence and fact-based beliefs and and
then I'm happier for it. I really my
life is way better as an atheist than
ever was as a religious person. I'm a
better person actually.
>> That's great.
>> Yeah, so
>> Yeah, and props to you for number one
having the courage to undergo that
transformation and then number two
making yourself available as
you know, somebody you know, something
that people can point to and go this is
a person that did this and serve as an
example and then help you know, help
them kind of
you know, just be a model for how to go
through that process, you know, I think
it's important. So
>> Well, I appreciate it. You know, there
is hope for people, you know,
yeah, if you could have met me 10 years
ago, you would have thought no way, but
>> [laughter]
>> and me too. I would have told you
there's no way I would ever not. So
anyway, again, thank you so much.
Appreciate you and we'll talk soon,
brother.
>> Sounds good. Thanks a lot.