Hey everyone, as you know, I'm
fascinated by all things science,
including neuroscience. Brains are neat.
Many of you also know that I have kids.
I'm a daddy. As it turns out,
neuroscience and fatherhood intersect in
some pretty interesting ways. So, let's
talk about it. Those of you who also
have children would undoubtedly agree
that it's about as transformative an
experience as is physically possible.
Having kids is simultaneously the most
frustratingly difficult and intensely
joyful thing in my life. Society, we
talk a lot about mothers, the experience
of childbirth, and the incredible
psychological changes that occur through
pregnancy, delivery, and infancy. I've
watched that twice up close with my
own eyes, and it's bananas. Women go
through a lot to bring new humans into
the world. Of course, people can and
should talk about mothers and motherhood
all the time, but fatherhood is
sometimes overlooked and misunderstood,
given that there are biological and
psychological changes that occur with us
dads, too. Darby Saxby is a PhD
psychologist at USC who has been
researching precisely this topic which
is the subject of her new book Dad Brain
the new science of fatherhood and how it
shapes men's lives. It's all about the
neuroscience of becoming a papa and the
resulting physical ramifications. So
we're talking about hormones, behavior,
dadbod and more. The implications of
this research span neuroscience,
endocrinology, psychology and cultural
anthropology. So there's a lot to
discuss and who better to discuss this
research with than Darby herself. So
let's have a chat with her now.
>> Darby, thanks so much for joining us. Uh
why don't you introduce yourself real
quick? Tell us about uh you know who you
are, what you do.
>> Sure. Very happy to be here. I'm a
professor of psychology at the
University of Southern California. I run
a lab called the neuroendocrinology of
social ties. I study father's brains and
bodies. And I wrote this book, Dad
Brain, which is about the science of
fatherhood and how it changes men's
lives.
>> Very nice. Very sharp sharp looking
cover.
>> Thank you. I'm I'm a fan. You notice I'm
wearing the bicycle dress because it's a
bicycle cover. That's
>> There you go. Right. Integrate all the
integrate all the branding. That's a
good way to do it.
>> I hear that's what you're supposed to
do. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Very smart. So, what's the deal? I
mean like mothers carry the child, they
birth the child, they nurse the child or
mothers are where it's at. So what why
are we studying dads? Why is this
important? What brought you to this
field of study? Tell us about it.
>> Yeah. So I talk about this a little bit
in the book, but I was actually raised
by a half-time single dad. So uh after
my parents got divorced, my dad got
custody of us initially. And so my
brothers and my sister and I spent a
week with our dad as the primary solo
caregiver and a week with uh my mom and
and our new stepdad. And so I saw my dad
go from very checked out, not super
hands-on parent to like the guy that was
in charge of everything, helped us with
our homework, um drove us to school, uh
taught me how to drive, and he became
this amazing dad. And so watching him go
through that transformation made me
really think about why is it that some
human men kind of turn on the ability to
parent and prioritize parenting and
others might be absentee and we have
this huge variability in fathering
behavior and I think you know in science
when there's variability there's
interest right we want to study
phenomena that varies so like you said
like the field has focused on mothers
And mothers are obviously incredibly
important for the survival of our
species, but we humans have adapted to
be cooperative breeders. So, we're alo
parents. What that means is that we
parent in community and that makes us
actually quite unique. So, most mammals,
uh, mom is really the the only um
caregiver who matters, right? Like
>> mom is out of the picture. Um, that
newborn is not going to survive. But we
humans, we have alo maternal nursing, we
have community caregiving, we have
grandparent care, and a lot of the time
we also have father care. So, um, trying
to figure out what the sources of
variability are in fathering behavior is
really interesting to me and how that
intersects with our brain and our
biology, right? like as fathers become
more involved in care, their brain and
their hormones start to adapt to that
caregiving role.
>> Right. So, it's very interesting because
yeah, I mean there are obviously the
tropes of the absentee father and then
just statistically you know women are
are almost always highly highly involved
with their children although obviously
there are counterexamples but uh but
yeah it it makes you wonder are we
talking about biological factors? Are
there anthropological right sociological
factors? Where do those all intersect?
Um, but yeah, I mean it's I I guess in
so far as we're discussing the
neuroscience of it, what what can we say
about the actual paternal brain and the
transition? Like let's get into the
nitty-gritty of the neuroscience.
Mothers, we know what's going on there
to create the pair bonding fathers where
where what's happening in the in the dad
brain there.
>> Yes, I will tell you all about it, but
we should circle back to the
anthropology because that's very
interesting too. But um in terms of the
paternal brains, so I'll actually start
with what we know about what's changing
in mom's brains, which was um a lot of
what we know comes from a 2016 Nature
neuroscience paper that looked at a
sample of women recruited from a
fertility clinic, some of whom went on
to become mothers during the study
period, some of whom remained
non-mothers. And the changes to the
women's brains were so profound that a
machine learning algorithm could
actually figure out who had become a
mother and who had not become a mother
just by looking at at what was different
in the brain.
>> And what was happening in women's brains
was actually and
>> this sounds like bad news. We actually
think it's good and adaptive. The brain
is losing gray matter volume. So um we
are shrinking. our brains are shrinking
and um that's probably a process of
remodeling um pruning to make the brain
work more efficiently
>> and um helping us connect more between
specific pathways that we're using a
lot. So the parts of the brain that lose
gray matter volume in moms are those
that are implicated in what we call the
mentalizing network, which is a couple
of different um structures that work
together when we're thinking about other
people's minds. And um we're when we're
engaged in social cognition. So um when
you are a new parent, you're using your
mentalizing network a lot because you
have to cultivate empathy for this
helpless infant, right? Moms are also
showing changes to the reward network um
and parts of what we consider like the
midbrain mamalian care caregiving
network
>> um in dads. So okay, I I read this
study. I thought it was so cool. I
hopped on a plane. and I did a fullbrite
to Spain to work with the investigators
who had published this work. They had a
sample of fathers who were the partners
of the women from the fertility clinic
and we combined that data with data that
I had collected in my lab at USC. So I
had scanned soon to be fathers when
their partners were pregnant and then
again about six months after birth. We
combined those samples. We found that
men were showing changes in the same
parts of the brain as the mothers, but
the changes were more nuanced um more
variable and more linked to paternal
experience, you know. So, we know like
you said that moms are all quite
involved in taking care of offspring and
pregnancy brings all of these hormones
that are acting on the brain.
>> Uh men show hormonal changes too around
the transition to parenthood, but
they're not as um profound. And um and
so what we think is happening dads is
much more like a story of experience
dependent plasticity. The more dads are
engaging with babies and the more um
experience they're getting, the more we
see this parental brain remodeling. So I
always say like great fathers are made
not born. Mhm.
>> Um I think we often think about and you
hear this a lot in narratives around
moms like moms are um you know innately
wired to take care of children and it's
I mean I find that quite gender
essentialist and not quite accurate but
it's less about being innately wired for
something to automatically happen. It's
more about how does the brain change as
we learn and develop experience and that
certainly seems to be what's pointing to
some of the variability in dads. Yeah.
Because I mean a woman doesn't have a
choice in the matter, right? There's
there's uh you know there there's a a
fetus growing and there's going to be a
physiological response. Whereas I think
for us so so I mean in terms of
experience like does it really start the
moment you see the child or or does it
take time of interacting with the infant
or what what about that first moment? Is
there a lot we can say about that?
>> Yeah it's interesting. thing. I have a
chapter in the book about birth, dad's
experience of birth. And I it like it
for a lot of men, I think they would
pinpoint that seeing their baby when
their baby is first born is this really
meaningful transformative moment. But um
it varies, right? Like I think for a lot
of men, it's just about those like many,
many, many little interactions that you
have as you're getting to know a baby or
a child,
>> right?
>> And it can maybe take years for dads to
feel like they've fully developed that
bond. So, I mean, moms kind of have a
head start, right? Because during
pregnancy, you're already feeling the
fetus. You're already aware that there's
this this creature growing inside of
you.
>> And um and dads sort of have to play
catch-up. And a lot of men really
struggle in the first year or two after
parenthood because there's just less for
them to do, especially if mom is
breastfeeding.
>> Yeah.
>> Um their role is they feel a little more
like an appendage.
>> Yeah.
>> But um
>> I'm the assistant, you know?
>> Yeah. Exactly. like I'm the helper. I'm
not the star of the show,
>> right?
>> Um and that can be hard for a lot of uh
new dads.
>> Um I interviewed a lot of dads for the
book and you know some of them said like
my relationship with my kids really
kickstarted after they could play
sports, after I could teach them things.
So I think every dad finds his own way
into parenthood, but it doesn't always
look exactly like mom's story.
>> No, of course. And I I resonate with
that. I mean, it's like I, you know, I I
watched two people come out of my wife
and it was the most intense experiences
of my life. It's completely surreal,
totally bizarre. And you do I mean, you
have that moment. You're like, "This is
the birth moment. This is a new baby.
This is my baby." And that's very
powerful, but I will admit it there.
It's that process of of bonding where
you interact with the child. And now,
you know, my kids are six and three, and
it's just completely different. We can
talk to each other. we can do, you know,
like it's just it's it's much more rich,
you know, I I I obviously women go
through so much and and nursing and like
that initial phase is so incredibly
bonding and so we don't have that. We
have this other experience uh about it.
What what do you find with child birth?
Like do you think uh like in terms of of
uh of men witnessing the child birth? Is
are there pros and cons to that or I
mean most men I think at this at this
phase do watch. It's not like the 1950s
where they're pacing with a cigarette in
the in the hospital lobby and then they
come out. What what's what's your take
on that?
>> Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know if
you uh saw this controversy, but Scott
Galloway on his podcast recently said,
"I don't think men should even be in the
delivering room because it's just
disgusting."
>> Um, and of course, there was a lot of
push back on that.
>> Um, but you know what's interesting is
birth is very social, right? So
throughout human history, one of the
things that's unique about humans is we
actually require assistance to deliver
an infant. Yeah. You know, and that's
partially because when we decided to I
mean decided when we evolved to walk
upright, we had to kind of make that
trade-off between like our pelvis width
and you know, the size of a baby's head.
>> Head size. Yeah,
>> exactly. Like the obst I'm going to
mispronounce this. Obstetrical
the obstetrical dilemma. It's called the
obstetrical dilemma.
>> Um
>> but birth has almost always been a
female only affair. So historically
women would be assisted by their
sisters, their mothers, a midwife and it
was only when birth moved into hospitals
which was really like in the 19th
century it became medicalized and all of
a sudden you had like the male doctor
presiding over birth
>> and women at that time were given super
heavy anesthesia. It was called twilight
sleep which basically knocked you out,
made you unconscious and women couldn't
even remember their own birth
experiences. So, um, it was actually
like in the 40s and 50s that some moms
actually started asking to have their
partners present at birth because they
wanted to reduce the anesthesia and they
wanted to be conscious of the birth. And
you've probably heard of the Bradley
method. Um, Bradley was a pediatrician
who actually advocated for husbands to
attend child birth. So, there's been
this huge sea change, but it really
wasn't even until the 70s or 80s that
dads started to be welcome at birth. And
in some cultures, in some countries,
like in Japan, it's actually not
completely typical for men to be a child
birth.
>> So, it's been this very recent
adaptation like in our human history.
Yet, we think of it as like it's almost
weird if men aren't at their baby's
birth.
>> At least in America. I don't know. I
feel like, yeah, we would probably shame
one another like, "What are you doing?
You're not there." You know,
>> I don't feel like I was terribly
necessary in any in any regard other
than a support. I'm just holding your
hand and like you can do it. And
>> uh I hope I did a good job. I don't
know. I mean, uh I mean I I wouldn't
trade it. I I'm glad I was there. I
mean, it's wild. It's wild to watch a
person come out of a person. It's
insane.
>> But um but yeah,
>> super freaky. Yeah. And like you said,
like there can be pros and cons. Like
it's wonderful for a lot of men and and
it is like such a miracle and it's and I
I I mean I know I was so happy my
husband was there because I was freaking
out, right? It's like this terrifying
and and like unpredictable experience.
Um but it's also it can be traumatic for
men. So sometimes things go wrong or
you're really scared and there's nothing
you can do. And so some men do show
difficulty adjusting to parenthood
because the birth was so upsetting. So I
think it's one of those things where we
don't think about the fact that fathers
haven't always been birth attendants.
It's this new role for them. And like
with a lot of aspects of fatherhood,
we're still figuring this out as a
species. Like this may not come
naturally.
>> Interesting. Yeah. Our f for our first
kid, it was a very sketchy uh thing that
happened. I won't go into details. I
don't, you know, maybe in another
podcast people want to know the deal,
but it was that kind of thing. Like for
for like a 30 secondond span, I was
like, is my wife going to die? What is
happening? You know, um, but I wouldn't
say I I think that that ended once the
delivery was successful. It was just
like, you know, a wave of relief and
then just, okay, let's get to work. Um,
but yeah, I don't know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I wrote about this in the
book, but when I was born, my dad
actually had to scrub in to perform
emergency surgery.
>> Wow. So, my dad's a surgeon, but
obviously he didn't want to be, you
know, working at the birth. But my mom's
um uterus turned inside out. Like the
the doctor pulled a little too hard when
delivering the placenta. And all of a
sudden, my mom loses all this blood and
like they have to put her back together.
And my dad had to like go to work.
>> And I was thinking about it like I was
probably just like this little newborn
like, "Hey, everyone forgot about me."
Um, and thankfully my mom was fine. She
recovered. She had two more kids. But
think about that experience for a new
dad. Like you've just watched your baby
be born and then all of a sudden you're
in a gown like
>> literally holding the scalpel.
>> Yeah. And your wife just went through
this crazy thing and that's wild.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, you So you mentioned your husband.
So So uh, for my viewers, Dan and I are
are friends. We know each other through
music. Uh, and so I I I I have a bit of
a selfish aside here. I want to know
about dadbod. Dan and I are two fellows
that I would characterize as having mild
dadbod. So I want to know right what
what is that? What there there's there's
a there's a physiological impetus for
this I hear. Right. What tell let's talk
about dadbod.
>> Yeah. So we think of dadbot as like this
comic insult but it actually is a real
phenomenon. So in uh mammals that uh
that are biparental where males are
involved in care, you actually do see
weight increases across the transition
to fatherhood. So in tamarind monkeys um
those that are expecting and and are
having new um babies actually do gain
like 10% of their body weight. And it
may be adaptive because you want to
increase your body size to be more
imposing and be a better guard of the
new baby.
>> Interesting. Um, you also want to like
like store fat because you will need to
provision your infant, right? Right.
>> Um, so it makes evolutionary sense that
that dads would get bigger um when a
baby is about to come. But in most human
context, like 95% of our history, we
were hunter gatherers. So um, you were
going from like extremely lean to
perhaps slightly less lean. um in our
modern kind of obesogenic society like
men actually can start to be worried
about their weight
>> and um dadbot is probably driven by a
bunch of different mechanisms but they
include hormonal changes like
testosterone levels drop right
>> um lifestyle changes sleep is disrupted
um exercise and eating changes it's this
multi-determined phenomenon but it is
this real phenomenon that's been
observed both in humans and in primates
>> yeah I definitely feel like my
metabolism has changed and I and I can't
tell if it's due to fatherhood or just
getting older in general. Um maybe a
combination but uh
>> yeah well there was an epidemiological
study that longitudinally looked over
several decades u men who were recruited
before they became fathers and those who
became dads actually did have an an
inflection point like an uptick in
weight gain not shown by men who did not
become children. So there is probably a
role for fatherhood. Yeah.
>> The good news is that actually women
prefer dad bots. So there have been
several studies of single women shown a
variety of body types and they are more
likely to endorse like you said the mild
dadbod um as being more attractive maybe
because it's signaling a man's
willingness to invest in his new family
which is attractive to women
>> provided that we are actually dads and
not just randomly gaining weight. What
what about dad's strength? Because I
also feel is that a thing? Because I
feel like I'm stronger. I can just like
lift more. And I don't know if it's
because I'm like carrying my children
everywhere all the time or so, but
sometimes I'm at the gym and I'm like
I'm strong. I'm I'm I'm in not quite as
good a shape as I was before. I'm older
and achier yet I can lift a bit more and
I'm not really sure why. Is that
something?
>> Yeah. I sorry to disappoint you. I don't
think that's a thing. But well, although
you know it's true like you're basically
whi lifting like a 10 to 35 lb weight
>> constantly. Yeah.
>> Multiple times a day, you know, and
maybe even bigger, right? So, and dads
are more likely to engage in physical
play of kids like lifting, throwing, um
tossing kids and um and all of that's
actually really good exercise. It's
weightbearing exercise.
>> Okay. Yeah. So, probably not
physiological just I Yeah. just carrying
them around all the time.
>> Let's talk about um so in terms of
postpartum, obviously we know that there
are women that that have postpartum.
Very fortunately, my wife didn't have uh
have that. She was really worried that
she was going to for our second kid
because uh the pregnancy was so awful.
She had uh hyperemmesis and was just
vomiting all the time. She's like, "This
is going to screw me up. I'm gonna have
postpartum." So, she didn't. But um uh
can dads have postpartum? Is that a
thing?
>> Yes. Yeah. So, and and I I think the
spotlight is on moms for good reason.
So, there has been a lot of awareness
raising about postpartum depression,
mood, and anxiety disorders in new moms.
We know there's heightened prevalence
around the birth of a baby. But, um, new
dads are actually twice as likely to
report mood disorders as men in the
general population. So, it is totally a
risk for new fathers as well. And you
know, as with depression in moms, it's
probably driven by a combination of
hormone changes, sleep changes, brain
changes, lifestyle changes, and also
like identity and social role changes.
>> But it often gets missed in new dads
because the symptoms can look a little
bit different. So
>> postpartum of depression in new moms can
look like sadness, crying, um what we
call the vegetative symptoms, which is
like staying in bed, loss of appetite,
loss of interest in things. And in men,
depression can often manifest as like
irritability, like bursts of anger, um
withdrawing from the partner and baby,
and um sometimes even like hyperfocus on
work. So, you know, and it makes sense
that these symptoms show up differently
in part just that's because that we're
of the social roles that we're playing.
Um,
>> but it means that practitioners often
just don't detect what could actually be
a mood disorder in men. They just think
he's like cranky and like not bonding,
>> right? It also it sounds a little bit uh
similar to just being a bad father. It's
just like I have postpartum. You don't
have to
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you wonder like
how many cases of father absence or like
father neglect are actually just driven
by
>> underosed what the overlap is there.
>> Yeah.
>> I I think I mean so I guess one question
I really have is that like if we're
identifying hormonal changes for me the
physical impetus of the of the hormonal
changes in a mother are very obvious
because it's responding to something
happening internally. But for a father,
do we understand the mechanisms by which
those hormonal changes can occur?
Because to me the input is not so
obvious. Um what what is it?
>> Yeah, it's a great question and I feel
like the field has not completely nailed
this down. I have done a lot of work on
uh hormonal co-regulation within
cohabiting couples.
>> So there is some evidence that when
people live together, they start to
match in their hormone levels. And I
found this both in transition to
parenthood context and non-transition to
parenthood context. So we see
correlations in levels of cortisol um
prolactin testosterone. So part of it is
probably just like within partner kind
of entrainment. Part of it might be like
shared routines like we know that sleep
and circadian rhythms determine a lot of
hormone trajectories. A lot of them have
>> dal rhythms. So when sleep is disrupted
our hormones look different. But um you
know with hormones like testosterone you
actually see shifts around reproductive
windows even in other species like a lot
of the work on testosterone was done in
birds and like a lot of the early work
and there's evidence that um you know
like during reproductive uh like mating
season male birds show spikes in
testosterone and then once they
successfully mate and have offspring
their testosterone drops. So, it's a
pattern that looks just like what we see
in human men,
>> right?
>> And it's it's probably serving those
different roles. Like when you have to
compete for mates,
>> you want to be aggressive, status
seeking, competitive.
>> Um, and when you need to invest in
nurturing um to make sure your offspring
actually survive, you need to be
patient, you know, non-combative.
So your repertoire is going to shift and
and so we see these kind of like
seasonal shifts in lots of different
species.
>> That's so fascinating. Yeah. And it is
across the animal kingdom. So there's
very clear biological impetus for it.
>> Yeah.
>> Speaking of So yeah, we're talking about
the shift or the hormonal shift for a
benefit of of you know parenting. Let's
talking about kind of the cultural stuff
in terms of parenting styles, mothers
and fathers. Are there is do we see any
trends about in terms of like unique
ways that fathers parent that's
different from mothers? What can we say
about that?
>> Yeah, definitely. So, we often think of
dads as more like the physical playmate.
And there is some evidence that uh not
just human males but males like primates
that are involved in um caregiving are
just more involved in like um risktaking
like exploratory play. So you think
about the prototypical like tossing your
toddler up in the air and catching them
um chasing them around um tickling them,
right? So and it turns out that kind of
play is really good for kids because it
actually tests their limits and it
boosts their confidence and so like like
kids need that kind of like more dad
style play um as they kind of develop
and learn how to self-regulate. And
there's that there's a lot of evidence
that dads who are more involved in early
childhood, those kids have better peer
relationships, like better outcomes
across a lot of domains.
>> Um, it is somewhat cultural. So like
Hunter Gather research finds that dads
actually aren't that much more engaged
in physical risk-taking play than moms.
So part of it is just like a social role
thing,
>> right? Um, but we do see this sort of
like, you know, this unique style of
father play has in some studies been
linked with things like levels of
oxytocin
and um, you know, father's sort of own
enjoyment of the parenting role. So, it
seems like there's like so many things.
It's like a mix of the biology and the
culture. It also kind of uh just in
terms of the the cultural shift towards
having kids later like I think like 50
years ago everyone was having kids in
their 20s whereas we you know I I had my
kids at 36 and 39 which I think is
fairly average but it does still mean
that I'm in my 40s with little kids and
and it's you know you're talking about
the chasing and this stuff is like I
totally love doing that but but you know
there's like okay daddy's tired I'm
going to rest now whereas if I was 27 I
might have more energy. H maybe I'm
shortch changing them, but I couldn't
have had them when I was in my 20s cuz I
was broke, so they couldn't have all
>> I know. I think it's a tra I think about
this all the time cuz Yeah, like I I had
my kids in my 30s, too. And it's like,
oh, I probably could have dealt with the
sleep deprivation a lot better 10 years
ago, but then again, I was a giant
flake. I don't I I would have like, you
know, forgot to sign them up for
preschool. So, who knows?
>> I don't know. I think it I think it
worked out fine. But uh yeah, because I
mean yeah, some people have kids in
their 40s and then they're in their 50s
with young kids. Yeah. I don't know. I
think I I kind of split the difference
pretty well.
>> Yeah.
>> But um yeah, talking about, you know,
mothers and fathers together, what how
does that relationship change? You know,
you have that bond. I mean, not
everybody. Some people kind of like have
a whoopsie kid and then decide to tie
the knot. But, you know, if if you're if
you're a couple that has been planning
to have children and then you you go
ahead and you do that, what what does
that look like in that transition?
>> Yeah. So, we know the transition to
parenthood is a high-risisk time for
couple relationship satisfactions. So,
um ever since the 50s, researchers have
called it like a crisis event for the
marriage. So we see this kind of nose
dive in relationship quality usually
around the birth of a child. Um which is
kind of a bummer but I think the upside
is when if couples can figure it out and
stick it out relationship quality might
rebound you know as kids get older. So
like some um relationships dissolve um
other couples are able to you know
recover and improve relationship
quality. You see these different
trajectories but um you know it makes
sense. It's a risky time for the
relationship, not only because of sleep
changes, lifestyle changes, but also
like identity changes, and just the the
responsibilities
and um division of child care, household
labor is often like a huge sore point
between couples. Frequently, you know,
men will compare themselves to what
their fathers and grandfathers were
doing and think like, I'm so involved.
I'm so helpful. women will compare their
partners to themselves and think, "I'm
still doing most of it." Right? So, that
can be a huge kind of lightning rod for
conflict between couples, you know,
because we are in this changing um world
in which women are earning more income.
Um but our social roles in the household
haven't totally evolved to kind of like
fit that yet.
>> Yeah, totally. I mean, there's a lot
more kind of hybrid like earning and
responsibility dynamics. I found myself
in a very traditional situation. Not
because we're traditional people by any
means. I abhore gender rules, but it
just kind of ended up being like, "All
right, I figured out how to earn money,
so I'll earn all the money, but then,
you know, help as much as I can." But it
is, yeah, I I do feel bad for couples
that kind of like can't make it through
that. I will say that like having a
three-year-old toddler with level two
autism and then a newborn when my second
one was born was by far the most
stressful time of my life. And like we
we definitely weren't at it with each
other. We were just kind of stressed
together and just like but then you kind
of I mean it's so much easier now. It's
still having kids is stressful but yeah
you do kind of get out of it and then
you're like hey we can like go to the
zoo or something and everyone's having a
great time and we're like having a great
family time you know. Um so those
rewards are are there for you. Did what
was your experience with Dan? I mean, h
did you have ups and downs or
>> Definitely. And you know, like I I'm
still married to him, so that's good.
And I still like him.
>> Um, but I Yeah, like we were just so
tired. Like I feel like it was so easy
to fight about stuff like the first I
don't know, 3 to 5 years. Like there are
parts I don't even remember that well
cuz I think I was just so sleepd
deprived.
>> Yeah. Um, and all of a sudden you're
like fighting with this person you love
about like who washed out the kid's
cereal bowl and like who lost track of
the stuffed animal and it's like why are
we doing this? But I think you're just
like so exhausted and there's like so
much going on because your kids need you
all the time.
>> Yeah. that unless you can I think really
like just prioritize the relationship
and and you need to have like really
good conflict resolution skills, the
relationship quality just inevitably is
going to suffer a bit.
>> Totally. This is where smart uh
well-communicating
adults have the upper hand. I mean you
you and Dan strike me as as you know
smart uh you know people who can have a
conversation. You know me and my wife
are you know my wife is a psychologist.
I, you know, I'm I'm a professional
communicator. We I we just kind of have
that upper hand of like anything that
could blow up, it's like, oh, you meant
that. Okay, I misinterpreted that. You
can kind of like
>> dig into that. And so, here we are.
>> Yeah. I mean, there have been some
studies of couples communication
interventions to see whether can you
prevent discord around the transition to
parenthood. So, like do couples therapy
before the birth of a baby. And some of
those have promising results. So there
is some potential for kind of like
large-scale intervention around just
like buffering the couple relationship
for this inevitable.
>> Absolutely. Outline expectations, kind
of designate the roles and you know if
I'm too tired to do this, please do this
and you know. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Totally.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. We um we force couples in our lab
to have an infant care division of labor
discussion in the lab. So they do it
during pregnancy and then they come back
at six months postpartum with their baby
and they do the same discussion. And so
we're able to actually look at like what
did they think they were going to be
doing and then what does it actually
look like after the baby's birth and in
almost every case uh the couple is
estimating that it's going to be a very
egalitarian split and then after birth
mom is usually doing more.
>> Yes.
>> And you know a lot of that just makes
sense. If she's breastfeeding there's
just more for her to do. Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, the way I always looked at it is
it's like I'm not I mean, it's
stereotypical, but I am not that cut out
for a lot of the stuff that she does.
But the way that I feel that I can bring
balance is that if I work really hard
and I earn extra money, hey, I can pay
someone to come every two weeks and
clean the house. I can pay for somebody
to help you with the kids here and
there. You know, we don't have like a
living nanny, but you know, sometimes
somebody comes the house. So it's like
if I work harder at the thing that I do,
I can help you with money. So
>> yeah,
>> that that ends up working out.
>> Yeah. And I think that that ends up
working out really well for some
couples. And I think then for other
couples like you know they need to
negotiate like a different arrangement
like
>> um equal earner couples are the fastest
growing share of the US population. So
>> this this source of conflict is going to
persist in couples and I think we need
like better skills and
>> better understanding of just how to
balance everything.
>> Yes. When you have the equal earners
there's so much minutia and every like
every single task is kind of delegated
in a in its own way. And unfortunately
the way the economy is just like
I feel very lucky that I c that we I can
be you know we can be single income.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but yeah.
>> Yeah. One thing my lab has looked at is
um cognitive household labor. So like
who's planning and anticipating needs
because like that part of like thinking
about housework is so different from
actually just executing. Yeah. And that
does tend to be a piece that's held more
traditionally by mom and it can be a
huge source of resentment in couples. So
>> yeah,
>> finding ways to make the mental load
more external and communicate better
about it can be another thing that can
help prevent a lot of the conflict that
happens.
>> Yes. Yeah. That resentment, you can't
let that fester whether it's, you know,
income based or task based. It just
Yeah. You can't be like, I always do
this and you never do this.
>> That's a killer.
>> Totally. Totally. Yeah,
>> let's talk about uh so fatherhood, you
have little kids, they grow up. Now
you're an older gentleman, you're an old
man here with adult kids. What does that
look like psychologically? Are there
benefits that that appear in old age uh
for fathers?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, there's actually this
really cool emerging uh body of research
finding that parenting may even be
neuroprotective to the aging brain. So
um there are I think four or five
studies now that have come out using
data from the UK bio bank which is this
like huge like tens of thousands of
neuroiming scans from people in their
50s and 60s and they have linked parody
which is to say like how many children
somebody has to markers of brain age and
what's interesting is that for both
mothers and fathers having had more
children is linked with what seems to be
a younger looking like more flexible,
better functioning brain. And um and
there's kind of a sweet spot where like
with two or three kids, you get the
biggest benefit and then it sort of
levels off. So like
>> you don't, you know, it's not like a
linear relationship where you need to
just like keep having kids.
>> Um
>> yeah, having 10 kids will drive you
insane and you'll die at 50. Yeah,
>> exactly. Like it'll level off. It's not
that helpful after a certain point. But
um but the fact that we see it for men
as well as women tells us it's not just
pregnancy hormones that appear to be
neuroprotective. It's got to be
something else about either parenting
experience um like we talked about like
experience dependent neuroplasticity
or social integration. Like we know that
um loneliness and isolation are huge
risk factors for mortality in late life
especially in men. So like men are more
likely to end up living alone in late
life and um men who don't have many
social connections have earlier
mortality
>> and um and in part that's just because
like women are often like have larger
social networks. um men can be more
dependent on the partner
>> and um so it may be that having had more
kids just sets men up to be more
connected
>> and that in itself it provides like a
brain boost. Um but there's also work on
cognitive function that finds that the
um like working memory and um like
response time look better if you've had
more kids. So it may also be like mental
practice that you're getting. Yeah, it
makes sense to me that performing
fatherly tasks
impacts
how your brain changes over time. Yeah.
No, that that completely makes sense. I
mean, there's things that I do as a dad
that non-dads don't do. I mean, 100%.
And and even just even as simple as like
kind of inhabiting the play space more
often, um, I would imagine probably has
some some beneficial effects.
>> Yeah. And I think another big thing is
like we all need to have a sense of
meaning and purpose and and I think like
a lot of men will say that being a
parent is one of their greatest sources
of meaning.
>> And it's like a sense of legacy, right?
Like why am I doing this? What am I
passing on to the next generation?
>> Yeah. And I think that is very
protective of mental and physical health
is to feel that sense of like social
integration and that you have like a
meaningful role to play in this life.
>> So
>> yeah,
>> fatherhood is good for that.
>> Absolutely. Yeah, I think I I think I
agree with that. So h how is society
changing and and and reacting to a newer
conception of fatherhood? Like you know
almost nobody would not offer maternity
leave. That's like impossible. But uh
but paternity leave is something that
we're kind of starting to talk about. I
don't think that many companies offer
it. How does that look in America? How
does it look in other countries? I feel
like probably what I bet Scandinavia
like already has it. And so what's where
are we at with paternity leave?
>> Yeah. So we're way behind other
countries um in both maternity and
paternity leave. No, we are the only
industrialized wealthy country that does
not offer paid maternity leave or like
universal paid parental leave,
>> right? Not universal at least.
>> Yeah. Like we are an outlier.
>> Um you know, we have unpaid uh maternity
leave, but a lot of people aren't
eligible for it. So like if you're a gig
worker, if you're a shift worker,
>> right?
>> Um tons of people fall through the
cracks. Like
>> there is some data that a quarter of new
moms go back to work 2 weeks after the
birth of a baby which is like insane
>> insane. Um, so as you can imagine, like
we're not we're also not in a great
place with paternity leave. And um, and
yeah, in like the Nordic countries, they
have actually developed these like nudge
or incentive programs where you get like
a use it or lose it leave where the
couple gets leave, but some of it is
actually earmarked for the dad and if
the dad doesn't take it, it just goes
away.
>> So it kind of incentivizes men to take
leave. And like Norway was one of the
first countries to adopt this. And when
they did, way more dads started taking
time off, right? Because all of a sudden
it was like you had this benefit that
was like conditional. Yeah. On you
taking time off. And it's really created
like a culture of fatherhood in those
countries where like in Sweden you have
this thing called latte papas which are
like men who walk around with their
latte cups and like go to the park and
like have playdates and like they're
just home with like young kids
>> um you know for 3 months or 6 months or
you know whatever the leave period is.
And so it creates this sort of like
normalization of fatherhood that I think
is is like new in in certain parts of
the world. Like father the definition of
fatherhood is changing quickly and um
we're kind of undergoing this like
rearrangement of parental roles as women
develop more you know income and status
in the workplace.
>> Yeah. And and yet we also see how it
varies just depending on different
public policies.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like it's
inevitable when you're shedding the more
archaic gender roles. Um things have to
change on both sides. What about ongoing
through fatherhood? Is the workplace
suggesting at all? Not just for
paternity leave, but in general men who
want to be more involved uh in
parenthood. Are we seeing changes there?
>> Yeah. So I interviewed I have a chapter
on dads at work. I interviewed a bunch
of different dads kind of about their
experiences with work and a lot of
people said to me they just feel like
the norms have changed generationally
and in part the pandemic was a big
inflection point because um men all of a
sudden were home with kids and just much
more involved in day-to-day life. And
for a lot of millennial men they just
didn't necessarily want to go back to
long hours at the office, right? And and
so the sort of like idea of like working
remotely, working more flexibly, um kids
popping up on Zoom meetings, like all of
those things have kind of shifted our
norms around parenting. And I think the
most progressive workplaces are adapting
to that and finding ways to develop
policies that adapt better to dads. Um,
at the same time, you also have this
like rising gig economy of like Amazon
warehouse workers and Uber drivers and
folks who maybe don't have a lot of
benefits and job security where it's
actually harder to show up as an
involved parent. So, I feel like the the
economic story of the day is that
everything is K-shaped. And I think like
fatherhood is also kind of K-shaped.
It's like for the most advantaged
fathers, they're spending more time than
ever before. And for the least
privileged dads, their time with kids is
actually going down,
>> right? Yeah. They're just at the mercy
of whatever. Yeah. I mean, that opens it
up to a much broader economic discussion
of where the job market is going and
Yeah. Uh and as AI more and more layoffs
and we just open up a whole another can
of worms there.
>> Yeah.
>> Although I mean you could argue AI is
like one of the few things AI can't do
very well is parent your kids for you.
>> Right. Of course. Yeah. So then it just
it becomes a matter of like will we ever
get UBI to like you know I don't know.
Yeah.
>> Whole other discussion.
>> I I I wrote a whole oped about UBI for
caregivers. I think zero if you have
kids from zero to three you should get
UBI.
>> Yeah. I I would get on board with that
in a second. Yeah. I mean it's just so
hard. Having little kids is so hard.
It's so much harder than I thought it
was going to be. It really it it it
really uh it really was. And now that my
younger is three and he can talk and and
you know, I mean, he's still kind of in
a whiny phase. I think in like one to
two years from now, it's just going to
be so good because it'll it just it was
so hard. And then when it's all of a
sudden not so hard and you have these
two awesome little humans that you're
friends with, it's just like, oh, it was
all worth it.
>> Um
>> Yes.
>> I feel the same way. My kids are 14 and
16, so now I have to fight to get them
to spend time with me.
>> Yeah. Um, and and it's like my life is
so much less stressful than it was 10
years ago.
>> I can only imagine.
>> It's crazy.
>> It's crazy. Last night I went outside my
house and like went to a rock show and
like
>> came back whenever I felt like it and
nobody was worried and it was like total
freedom.
>> Yeah. They can do everything themselves.
Yeah. It's like my older one can like go
to the bathroom on on his own and stuff
and I'm like, "Wow, all right. One less
thing, you know."
>> Yeah.
>> But um
>> Yeah. Once you can go places with no car
seat, no stroller, no bibs, no
pacifiers, no diaper bag, you're like,
"Oh my god, I'm so free."
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then it only gets easier
from there until you're like, "Oh, I
wish some of it would come back."
>> Yeah. Now I'm like knocking on my kids
door being like, "Hey, do you want to
hang out?"
>> Yeah, please.
>> Yeah. Come sit with me on the couch. We
can watch a show.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I'll try to Yeah. I have this kind
of like middle sector to to look forward
to, but we'll see. But anyway, yeah, it
sounds like I mean, yeah, motherhood,
fatherhood, it's all great. And uh it
looks like the era of the dad is kind of
uh coming up here. Um so yeah, I can't
think of anything else to ask, but uh
tell us where where we can find your
book.
>> Yes, so it is coming out June 9th, and
it will be at bookstores everywhere.
Folks can pre-order it before then. And
um I'll show you the cover again. Here
it is. Uh, it's coming out from Flat
Iron Press, which is a division of
McMillan and, uh, available wherever
books are sold.
>> Very cool. I will definitely have the
link in the description. Everybody, go
ahead and check it out. But uh, yeah,
thanks so much for talking to me.
>> Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
>> Fascinating stuff. No, I know I learned
a lot. If you're interested in checking
out the book for yourself, whether
you're a dad, planning to become a dad,
or as a gift for a special dad in your
life, check the link in the description.
Otherwise, stay tuned for more
fascinating discussions with researchers
and other academics in the near future.